> > Thank you, rappy. I've been saying this for a while here. If
> > "intolerance" in and of itself is bad, then being "intolerant of
> > intolerance" is of course hypocritical. I've seen this attitude pop up
> > here and there, right now bob600 and Walt seem particularly guilty of
> > it (although theists constantly whine about "intolerance" despite the
> > "intolerance" that is built into their respective faiths), and I
> > really can't have any respect for people whose core "values" are
> > completely based on holding standards to others that they don't hold
> > to themselves.
> > I think not living up to your own standards is failing
> > the most basic test of ethics.

> This is a really good point and the fact is that any moral and ethical human
> being will, by virtue of their morality and ethics, be intolerant of that
> which is immoral and unethical.

> Many theists seem to think that because they are theists and they have a
> doctrine which they obey that somehow gives them the moral high ground, but
> they don't actually have to apply any other moral or ethical guidelines to
> themselves.

> The better one's apply secular morality and ethics, others are in jail
> waiting to go to heaven and be forgiven by god and the rest just running
> around acting holier than thou while doing whatever they nasty thing they
> want to and using their doctrine to put up the pretense that their shit
> smells sweeter than anyone else's and to cover for their nasty behavior.

> I have a neighbor like that. She's the nastiest person in the world and
> would sell out her own mother given the chance but parades around "god
> blessing" everyone while she screws everyone she can for whatever she can
> get. She hides behind her Christianity to commit bad acts and then uses it
> to protect herself from the consequences of her bad acts (god will forgive
> me, I'm a sinner type crap).

> A moral and ethical person first has to hold themselves to the highest
> standards before they can expect that from anyone else and to claim moral
> superiority while not holding oneself to those standards is self-serving at
> best and immoral and unethical at worst.

> > On Jun 27, 9:46 pm, rappoccio <rappoc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > It has recently been argued that anti-theists are being unfair to
> > > theists. The argument boils down to this:

> > > -If theists believe something that does not contradict secular
> > > morality, then anti-theists have no justification to say it's
> > > irrational and immoral.
> > > -This is because they "just believe" in something based on "irrational
> > > intuition", and if it does not contradict secular morality, then it is
> > > permissible.

> > > Let's apply this to the stance of the anti-theist... that religion, in
> > > and of itself, is immoral. Let's pretend that anti-theists have
> > > arrived at this conclusion via the same "irrational intuition" that
> > > theists are allegedly using for their conclusions. Of course this
> > > isn't actually true and anti-theists do a lot better with their
> > > arguments, but pretend that it is based on nothing aside from
> > > "irrational intuition". Now change "theists" in the above sentence to
> > > "anti-theists".

> > > -If anti-theists believe something that does not contradict secular
> > > morality, then anti-anti-theists have no justification to say it's
> > > irrational and immoral.
> > > -This is because they "just believe" in something based on "irrational
> > > intuition", and if it does not contradict secular morality, then it is
> > > permissible.

> > > Now, the question remains, does anti-theism contradict secular
> > > morality?

> > > Clearly anti-theism does not contradict secular morality more than
> > > theism (and of course, I believe it contradicts secular morality a
> > > great deal less, but that's besides the point to this discussion at
> > > hand). Therefore, based exclusively on this, there is no justification
> > > that someone should be "anti-anti-theist" for the reasons above. An
> > > anti-anti-theist can not consistently criticize anti-theists for the
> > > very thing the anti-theists are criticizing theists for.

> > > That makes anti-anti-theists hypocritical.

> --
> ------------------------------------------------
> Trance Gemini
> Irrationally held "truths" may be more harmful than reasoned errors.
> -- Thomas Henry Huxley

> Which God Do You Kill For? --Unknown

> Love is friendship on fire -- Unknown- Hide quoted text -

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