I was reading one of the Locus First Novel threads, and LWE said:
<i>I can report that at least one person I trust says it's got all your standard first-novel problems and isn't very good.</i>
And I was wondering, what are these problems? The only one I can think of is the 'kitchen sink' problem, where every cool idea the author's ever had shows up in one book, but I'm sure there's more. Are there any sfnal specific first novel problems?
>I was reading one of the Locus First Novel threads, and LWE said:
><i>I can report that >at least one person I trust says it's got all your standard >first-novel problems and isn't very good.</i>
>And I was wondering, what are these problems? The only one I can >think of is the 'kitchen sink' problem, where every cool idea the >author's ever had shows up in one book, but I'm sure there's more. >Are there any sfnal specific first novel problems?
Mary-Sue-ism, probably, in which the author models her* protagonist on herself* and paints her* much larger than life.
Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > In article <b3fb00d6-b38e-4f61-a13f-665e545fa...@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > <phdu...@gmail.com> wrote: >> I was reading one of the Locus First Novel threads, and LWE said:
>> <i>I can report that >> at least one person I trust says it's got all your standard >> first-novel problems and isn't very good.</i>
>> And I was wondering, what are these problems? The only one I can >> think of is the 'kitchen sink' problem, where every cool idea the >> author's ever had shows up in one book, but I'm sure there's more. >> Are there any sfnal specific first novel problems?
> Mary-Sue-ism, probably, in which the author models her* > protagonist on herself* and paints her* much larger than life.
> Deus ex machina is also a possibility.... > *Or if masculine, it's a "Barry Stu."
I've usually seen "Marty Stu", actually.
Another common first author mistake is "overkill" in the background. Sort of related to the Kitchen Sink problem, the author in this case is afraid that the reader may miss some aspect of the background the author thinks is important, and ends up with thousands of words of infodump and As You Know Bobbing that turn out not to be really needed.
Some first authors have the opposite problem: things that are obvious to them, they assume are obvious to the reader, and thus critical, need-to-know information... isn't there.
In article <g4lddk$9s...@registered.motzarella.org>, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> Another common first author mistake is "overkill" in the background. >Sort of related to the Kitchen Sink problem, the author in this case is >afraid that the reader may miss some aspect of the background the author >thinks is important, and ends up with thousands of words of infodump and >As You Know Bobbing that turn out not to be really needed.
Oh yes. This is sometimes blamed on Tolkien, particularly when the infodump appears in a foreword. But really, Tolkien's foreword consists chiefly of three elements: background information about Hobbits (for those who didn't read _The Hobbit), a summary of the plot of _The Hobbit_ (ditto) and some academic digressions about the various ancient manuscripts in which the tales occur. The important backstory is given later, in Chapter Two, with no AYKB because Frodo *doesn't* know any of it.
Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djhe...@kithrup.com
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote: >Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >> In article <b3fb00d6-b38e-4f61-a13f-665e545fa...@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, >> <phdu...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> I was reading one of the Locus First Novel threads, and LWE said:
>>> <i>I can report that >>> at least one person I trust says it's got all your standard >>> first-novel problems and isn't very good.</i>
>>> And I was wondering, what are these problems? The only one I can >>> think of is the 'kitchen sink' problem, where every cool idea the >>> author's ever had shows up in one book, but I'm sure there's more. >>> Are there any sfnal specific first novel problems?
>> Mary-Sue-ism, probably, in which the author models her* >> protagonist on herself* and paints her* much larger than life.
> Another common first author mistake is "overkill" in the background. >Sort of related to the Kitchen Sink problem, the author in this case is >afraid that the reader may miss some aspect of the background the author >thinks is important, and ends up with thousands of words of infodump and >As You Know Bobbing that turn out not to be really needed.
> Some first authors have the opposite problem: things that are obvious >to them, they assume are obvious to the reader, and thus critical, >need-to-know information... isn't there.
It's possible to do both in the same story -- over-explaining your hero's genealogy while neglecting to mention why the sun is green, or whatever.
Other issues: Scenes that do nothing to advance plot or develop character, but are there because the author thinks they're cool.
Failure to make minor characters out of anything better than low-grade cardboard.
Plot "surprises" that were blindingly obvious in Chapter One.
> And I was wondering, what are these problems? The only one I can > think of is the 'kitchen sink' problem, where every cool idea the > author's ever had shows up in one book, but I'm sure there's more. > Are there any sfnal specific first novel problems?
Telling instead of showing, railroad plots, idiot plots, sloppy scene changes, inconsistant internal chronology.
-- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - email: kgaert...@tx.rr.com http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll
>> And I was wondering, what are these problems? The only one I can >> think of is the 'kitchen sink' problem, where every cool idea the >> author's ever had shows up in one book, but I'm sure there's more. >> Are there any sfnal specific first novel problems?
> Telling instead of showing, railroad plots, idiot plots, sloppy > scene changes, inconsistant internal chronology.
What is a "railroad plot"? I'm unfamiliar with the term.
> > And I was wondering, what are these problems? The only one I can > > think of is the 'kitchen sink' problem, where every cool idea the > > author's ever had shows up in one book, but I'm sure there's more. > > Are there any sfnal specific first novel problems?
> Telling instead of showing
So Baen authors other than Bujold have written a lot of first novels.
> Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > > In article > > <b3fb00d6-b38e-4f61-a13f-665e545fa...@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > <phdu...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I was reading one of the Locus First Novel threads, and LWE said:
> > > <i>I can report that > > > at least one person I trust says it's got all your standard > > > first-novel problems and isn't very good.</i>
> > > And I was wondering, what are these problems? The only one I can > > > think of is the 'kitchen sink' problem, where every cool idea the > > > author's ever had shows up in one book, but I'm sure there's more. > > > Are there any sfnal specific first novel problems?
> > Mary-Sue-ism, probably, in which the author models her* > > protagonist on herself* and paints her* much larger than life.
> Another common first author mistake is "overkill" in the background. > Sort of related to the Kitchen Sink problem, the author in this case > is afraid that the reader may miss some aspect of the background the > author thinks is important, and ends up with thousands of words of > infodump and As You Know Bobbing that turn out not to be really > needed.
> Some first authors have the opposite problem: things that are > obvious to them, they assume are obvious to the reader, and thus > critical, need-to-know information... isn't there.
The classic (among published novels) is Curme Gray's _Murder in Millenium VI_. It's a future mystery in which nothing is explained that wouldn't need to be explained to people of that time and place.
>> And I was wondering, what are these problems? The only one I can >> think of is the 'kitchen sink' problem, where every cool idea the >> author's ever had shows up in one book, but I'm sure there's more. >> Are there any sfnal specific first novel problems?
Shifting viewpoints, not quite omni, not quite multiple tight third.
Jacey -- Jacey Bedford jacey at artisan hyphen harmony dot com posting via usenet and not googlegroups, ourdebate or any other forum that reprints usenet posts as though they were the forum's own
> >> And I was wondering, what are these problems? The only one I can > >> think of is the 'kitchen sink' problem, where every cool idea the > >> author's ever had shows up in one book, but I'm sure there's more. > >> Are there any sfnal specific first novel problems?
> > Telling instead of showing, railroad plots, idiot plots, sloppy > > scene changes, inconsistant internal chronology.
> What is a "railroad plot"? I'm unfamiliar with the term.
Its mainly a gaming term, but here it means the author knows what plot events are going to happen, and characters either act out of character or are not given any choices in the first place.
-- Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - email: kgaert...@tx.rr.com http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/ "I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface." -- James Nicoll
